Fight Phase 8th Edition More Than 2 Units
| Judge Doug | 02 May 2017 6:22 a.m. PST |
| New Warhammer 40,000 � Fight Phase This is part of the new Warhammer 40,000 with some of the biggest changes. We've already seen in our article on unit profiles that Initiative has gone. Instead, the priority for striking is based on the previous phase, with those units that completed a charge swinging first. There's a definite emphasis on making charging into combat effective � these units have gotten all the way across the battlefield, they've braved enemy fire and overwatch, and now they've finally made it into combat � they will at the very least get to swing. Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you're cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn't charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch). Enemy gun lines will need to be careful about how they position their supporting units, so as to avoid getting dragged into the fight too. Following chargers, players take it in turns to activate units across the board to fight � this can get quite tactical, as both players need to choose the combats where dealing maximum damage will be important to them, while trying to limit enemy retaliation on their valuable or fragile models. There are a few units that can interrupt this sequence to attack out of turn too � Tyranids with lash whips and Slaaneshi Daemons, for example � and it can also be influenced by Stratagems (more on these soon) if your army is Battle-forged, all of which add a nuanced level of tactical depth to the phase. Players will have much more influence over the outcome of combat now, rather than purely the stats of the models involved, both in their own and in the opponent's turns (though we still wouldn't expect Guardsmen to triumph over a unit of Khorne Berzerkers any time soon � fix bayonets!). Another thing we have seen is that hit rolls are now fixed. This has the effect of making dedicated combat units generally hit on a 3+, while models representing the most competent warriors of the 41st Millennium (Guilliman, the Swarmlord, Ghazghkull Thraka, to name but a few) will now hit on 2+! Close combat weapons (which we'll look at in more detail in future) also gain new rules � some will slice through armour easily, while others will hit with enough force to cause deal multiple wounds that can cripple or kill even powerful enemy models. Across the board, these changes lead to combats that are more deadly than ever. Generals who successfully coordinate a battlefield-wide charge will be rewarded with a phase of utter carnage, while their opponent will have to work hard to minimise taking damage, and carefully consider their retaliatory options. Expect combats to be hard-fought, bloody, and tactical � just as they should be. We'll be back tomorrow with some new details on morale � and after we've seen the damage that shooting, psychic powers and combat can do � can you blame anyone for running away? | |
| Bob Runnicles | 02 May 2017 6:30 a.m. PST |
| Sounds a lot like the AoS Fight phase including the 3" Pile In move, which is no bad thing. So chargers strike first, then it's alternate unit activation, which I like. I also like that some options allow this sequence to be circumvented (like Lash Whips) though we still need to see the actual details for the equipment involved. Personally I'm still very excited about the new edition! | |
| Judge Doug | 02 May 2017 6:34 a.m. PST |
| Yeah man! This is exactly what I hoped. I love that the pile-in can drag in nearby units that you didn't specifically charge – that's definitely a benefit for assaulting armies. Across the board, these changes lead to combats that are more deadly than ever. Good, I despite turn-over-turn combat and it sounds like this will result in lots more decisive fights instead of turning into a giant scrum. | |
| Grignotage | 02 May 2017 7:00 a.m. PST |
| Gotta say I have been enjoying the sound of these updates. I was usually able to work around the insane pricing---second hand, using older models, trades, etc---but for a long time it was the awfulness of the rules that turned me off. But these changes sound quite good. Over the years I sold off all my 40k stuff…except for the core of an Ork army. So maybe they'll be getting play again soon. | |
| Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 02 May 2017 7:05 a.m. PST |
| Sounds complicated though these things invariably make more sense when you actually get minis on the table and roll dice. | |
 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 02 May 2017 8:15 a.m. PST |
| Sounds like 40K is favoring CC again. This should encourage more people to play Orks and Tyranids. Tau and Guard (I refuse to use the term "Astra Militarum") players might not fare as well in 8th ed. | |
| Judge Doug | 02 May 2017 8:18 a.m. PST |
| It's like every update is designed to make you think it will favor something over an other – free shooting at incoming chargers and chargers possibly failing sounded like 40k was favoring shooting armies! I'm honestly thinking it's going to balance out. All the tournament players at FLG/Adepticon/Nova etc have been playtesting it for months and months, and you know they're trying out every possible loophole to fix and close them. IIRC one of the playtest groups submitted 1500 playtests alone. | |
| The Beast Rampant | 02 May 2017 8:21 a.m. PST |
Sounds complicated though these things invariably make more sense when you actually get minis on the table and roll dice Also, talking in generalities, without certain point of reference, can make things sound complicated! I'm honestly thinking it's going to balance out. All the tournament players at FLG/Adepticon/Nova etc have been playtesting it for months and months, and you know they're trying out every possible loophole to fix and close them. IIRC one of the playtest groups submitted 1500 playtests alone. That's awesome. | |
| alpha3six | 02 May 2017 8:27 a.m. PST |
| So far I like almost nothing about 8th. I dislike how every single character will be simply WS2+, and I hate how chargers strike first. For me, it sounds like this is the first edition to completely get rid of all vestiges of the "sim" philosophy in favor of a fast playing tourney oriented game. Laugh at me if you want, but I do believe the previous editions made at least some attempt to model plausible tactics seen through the very distorted lens of 40k grimdark, even though 6th and 7th came close to completely abandoning the ideals behind 3rd edition. | |
| Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 02 May 2017 8:36 a.m. PST |
| Yeah everyone hits on 3+ bar a few a super characters who hit on 2+ does sound a bit naff was the old WS vs WS chart that hard or slow to use that it need to go? I liked that some warriors were better than others in close combat. | |
| Bob Runnicles | 02 May 2017 8:39 a.m. PST |
| No, dedicated combat units will hit on a 3+ and super-characters on a 2+ but I imagine most 'regular' figures will hit on a 4+ and poorer quality ones on a 5+. It's not a blanket 3+ across the board. | |
| Judge Doug | 02 May 2017 8:43 a.m. PST |
| Not everyone hits on a 3+… Unless I missed something, dedicated combat units generally hit on a 3+ I would assume things like Guardians or Guardsmen are not dedicated combat units. | |
| Judge Doug | 02 May 2017 8:45 a.m. PST |
So far I like almost nothing about 8th Well you do have 7 previous editions you could keep playing. I'm loving everything about 8th. Not sure about plausible tactics of 3rd+ editions when a unit of models could get trapped in hand to hand for five turns against a model they could not injure and would kill 1-2 models per turn. (specific example, Khorne berzerkers spending whole game tied in combat with a Space Marine Dreadnought who killed 1-2 models per turn and they could not hurt it) | |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 02 May 2017 9:58 a.m. PST |
| I like the simpler rules for rolling to hit in CC. The "to hit" roll you need in previous editions requires you to compare the WS of the attacker with that of the defender using the following table: ….which can be confusing because it doesn't follow the similar but more intuitive (and memorizable) Strength vs. Toughness "To Wound" chart: | |
| Mithmee | 02 May 2017 11:53 a.m. PST |
| Here is the Link link | |
| Mithmee | 02 May 2017 11:58 a.m. PST |
Units that activate gain a free 3�� move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1�� of other enemy units, I told you that this would be a useful Tactic. Since you could just activate an unit and move those 3" and bang certain models (those within 1" of your models) in the enemy unit cannot fire anymore. Allowing you to charge with either no Overwatch fire or very limited Overwatch fire. | |
| Mithmee | 02 May 2017 12:12 p.m. PST |
with those units that completed a charge swinging first Would prefer that everyone fighting gets to roll to hit instead of this. Since the above means that those with certain weapons (Power Gloves/Fists) will no longer strike last. So once again we will have individuals (I.E. WAAC'ers) who will strive to only get these miniatures into combat with as few of the enemy as possible. But it is looking like the game turn will still be UGO – IGO but you would only get to move one unit then your opponent would move an unit. Better than one getting to move/act with everything. Also means that having more units will be a benefit. | |
| Judge Doug | 02 May 2017 12:32 p.m. PST |
Since the above means that those with certain weapons (Power Gloves/Fists) will no longer strike last. Well we still don't know that – they haven't published any rules preview of power fists… | |
| Judge Doug | 02 May 2017 12:35 p.m. PST |
But it is looking like the game turn will still be UGO � IGO but you would only get to move one unit then your opponent would move an unit. Hmm no it's still IGO UGO, but in the fight phase, anyone you charged, strike first. Then any combats that involved no chargers, alternate. so say it is my turn. Meanwhile unit B is in combat with unit 2 since last turn Charging goes first: Then remaining fights happen. It's my turn so I choose which fight. There will be a lot of tough decisions to make as to what order you want your combats to go in! | |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 02 May 2017 1:34 p.m. PST |
Since you could just activate an unit and move those 3" and bang certain models (those within 1" of your models) in the enemy unit cannot fire anymore. True, and the article actually suggested it as a viable tactic. The obvious solution is to keep your various units at least 6" apart from each other, but it might be difficult if you have a lot of minis on a limited size table. Other tactics like countercharge units might have to be considered. | |
| Mithmee | 02 May 2017 5:32 p.m. PST |
| True, like with the other short pieces that GW has put out there is a lot that we do not know about. The key thing here is either kill off those miniatures that are under 4" away from your unit or move that unit. As for the Power Fists GW created that they go last since individuals where doing what I stated above. There is really no reason why they should go last since the Tech should allow them to punch at the same time as everyone else. The key thing is that GW needs to ensure that a miniatures does not get more attacks than what they come with. So no: More getting an extra attack for being armed for close combat. Extra Attack for charging into combat. So they need to move away from the Bucket of Dice that the game has turn into. | |
| Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 03 May 2017 12:19 a.m. PST |
| Can't agree I love rolling buckets of dice its fun. I have no problem with troops getting extra attacks. TBH the more I hear about the new edition the more it seems to be getting away from the Warhammer I know and love (and have been playing various forms since 2nd edition WFB) the steady erosion of the Stat line and the loss of charts are big for me. Its cool clearly a lot of customers want that but for me those are things that make it Warhammer. As the rules are going to be free I'll give them a whirl but nothing is yet making me think I want to switch from 4th edition 40K much as AOS didn't get me wanting to switch up from 3rd WFB. | |
| Mithmee | 03 May 2017 12:35 p.m. PST |
| No it is not fun rolling 40-60 dice or more just for one round of combat. That is nothing but a bid waste of time. Oh and look you just got done with that combat now you can move onto the next combat… Need to load up that bucket again. | |
chuck05  | 03 May 2017 3:11 p.m. PST |
| If anything 40k going to an AoS style system will make it even more of a buckets o dice game. | |
| Mithmee | 03 May 2017 4:17 p.m. PST |
| If it does I will hate it since the game just comes down to who can roll the most dice in a turn. | |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 04 May 2017 7:04 a.m. PST |
| Rolling "buckets of dice" will always be a player preference unless we go back to 1st or 2nd Ed. There will always be players who field armies with massive numbers of figures whose preferred strategy of winning is no more subtle than wearing down the opponent with sheer numbers. It's been that way since 3rd Ed. | |
| Judge Doug | 04 May 2017 8:01 a.m. PST |
| What is a bucket of dice though? I play Kings of War and is 20 dice a bucket? I've been attacked in the rear by a horde of zombies and took 120 dice attacks :) in Warhammer 4th you could get a unit chosen khorne champions with 5 dice per model, so a unit with a frontage of 7 guys would be rolling 35 dice… Dogs of war pikemen would be rolling up to 40 dice! | |
| Mithmee | 04 May 2017 10:44 a.m. PST |
20 dice a bucket Yes and anything over 10 dice at a time is to many dice. The game should not be about who can roll the most dice per turn but that is what GW games are all about these days. Take a look at Fantasy Flight Runewars and see just how many dice they roll in an attack. YouTube link Oh and it not very many at all usually less than 5 dice. So while Kings of War is a better game than AoS it still has players rolling far to many dice. took 120 dice attacks Really 120 dice is that even necessary? I could design a system where you would be rolling at most 10-12 dice and still get the same results. Like one dice for every five miniatures so a Horde would be rolling 8 dice, character with the unit +1 dice attacking from the rear +2 dice. Roll to hit and then they roll to save normally but since the attacks are coming from the unit's rear there is no armor saves. Oh using D10's or D20's instead of D6's. | |
| Centurio Prime | 04 May 2017 10:46 a.m. PST |
| I prefer a decent amount of dice to average out the rolls. For example in DBA I roll 1d6 and roll crappy on a key combat and my battleline collapses on that roll of 1 die. Whereas when rolling 25 dice you are likely to get less swingy results because they usually average out the rolls better. | |
| Judge Doug | 05 May 2017 5:46 a.m. PST |
| Rolling 1/10th, or any fraction really, of a number of dice, will not produce the same results. The smaller the sample size, the less accurate the results will be. C'mon Mithmee. KoW isn't really a better game than AoS. That's like saying Diplomacy is a better game than Kriegspiel. They are both excellent at what they set out to do but they aren't trying to do the same thing at all. When I got into Warhammer Fantasy Battles in 4th edition I had to scrounge for dice because I was rolling so many! The first "buckets of dice" game :) | |
| Mithmee | 05 May 2017 6:06 a.m. PST |
| How so, since back then only the front rank could fight and the average size frontage was 4-5. Plus if the models did not touch an enemy miniature it did not fight. So you did not field a unit of 40 in a ten man front since at best you would only get around 6 fighting. Oh and back in 4th Edition you could have just a four man front. The only time that you might roll 10 dice or more was if you fielded large units of Archers, Crossbows or Handgunners. But that unit would be in a long thin line, which would die once it got charged. Or you did not break an unit in melee and you wrapped troops around it. No 4th Edition was not even close to being a bucket of dice game. | |
| Judge Doug | 05 May 2017 4:58 p.m. PST |
| My typical unit of High Elf Spearmen were 8 wide, producing a frontage of 160mm, so against 6 wide units (the norm for my area, since 6 > the standard of 5, so everyone eventually adopted 6) I would get 8 models (corners) and against models on 25mm bases that were 6 wide (150mm) I would get all 8 models. Fights in 2 ranks. 24 dice. :D Plus those Khorne chosen chaos warriors getting 5 dice per model… that was a rough time. Gosh by 8th edition you had units with 5 ranks fighting (first, support, horde, spear, and HE spear), but that edition was a big ol mess | |
Fight Phase 8th Edition More Than 2 Units
Source: http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=452476